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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holocaust (disambiguation)

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Old discussion from VfD

Discussion concluded and article kept on May 28, 2004

Presents deeply POV, controversial, rarely used terms as if they are common designations. John Kenney 04:24, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

  • Keep. You listed this page within ten minutes of its creation, with no effort to resolve the POV. The terms in question are in use. Yes, they're controversial terms - yes, that should probably be noted. I'll add it as soon as I'm done with this post. However, they're in use, and it's POV for us to deny their existence. Really, really POV, since the terms are in use in fairly mainstream discussion. (As I noted on the talk page, i was assigned The Black Holocaust for Beginners in a popular class at UChicago this year taught by one of the biggest names in the English department.) Try working to improve articles instead of simply calling for their deletion. Snowspinner 04:28, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
    • The English department, eh? Surely historical terms should have to be validated by use by historians. There are only 5,820 Google results for "Black Holocaust". Amazon reveals only 50 results for "Black Holocaust", most of which do not seem to be talking about the Black Holocaust but to be random hits. A very broad JSTOR search reveals no scholarly articles with "Black Holocaust" in the title (and no reviews of books with "Black Holocaust" in the title. Only nine articles in all of JSTOR even have the term "Black Holocaust" in them. Most of them use the term in quotation marks. John Kenney 04:37, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Oh, man. I don't think I've ever seen a page so non-npov and yet so even-handed. Delete, unless you work a miracle. --Ben Brockert 04:34, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
    • I've already revised it to include mention of the controversy. It's a very tough page to write - the terms are so controversial, and in many ways very viscerally offensive, but they are in substantial, if not common usage. (Google either and you get well over a thousand results as phrases, and a couple hundred thousand as individual words). That said, I don't think we can fairly shy away from controversy and still claim to be NPOV - the term holocaust isn't just used to refer to the Nazi holocaust, for better or for worse, and it should be reflected. Snowspinner 04:39, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
      • It's not a miracle, but it's not quite so non-NPOV. No vote. --Ben Brockert 22:08, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
  • [1] is a link to a current newspaper article that indicates that the term "Palestinian Holocaust" is in use. Snowspinner 04:48, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. It should mention that it's controvercial, and it does. The Holocaust of WW2 should remain at the main holocaust title, which it is. But if the terms are in use I think it's fair to have a disambig pointing people where to go. --Starx 04:53, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Current version looks good to me. -- Chris 73 | Talk 05:05, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep - excellent job sorting this out. Delist early if nobody objects. - TB 08:58, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, definitely - David Gerard 16:19, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, seems like it is heading in a good direction. "Armenian holocaust", at least, is genuinely common usage. -- Jmabel 17:06, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep: I’ve seen at least one of these terms - Armenian Holocaust - quite a few times. Other people have referred to the reign of Pol Pot, and the events in his killing fields, as a holocaust. Furthermore, applying that appellation to mass murders perpetrated by the Nazis is itself controversial (even among holocaust scholars), because the term literally refers to the total consumption of a sacrificial offering by fire: The controversy of this page, then, shouldn’t be enough to merit a delete. - Kael
  • Keep. I've heard these terms being used. -- Cymydog Naakka 07:44, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Legitimate disambig, legitimate terminology, what's POV here? Denni 03:54, 2004 May 23 (UTC)
  • Delete. No credible source for "Canadian Holocaust", therefore article lacks credibility. Denni 07:14, 2004 May 23 (UTC)
    • This statement of yours is an example of the Fallacy of Composition - ascribing the characteristic of one part to the whole without justification. Even if the term “Canadian Holocaust” doesn’t exist, there’s ample proof that the many of the other terms do. Kael
    • Well, why don't you edit out "Canadian Holocaust" and make it credible for crying out loud? This is Wikipedia! Cymydog Naakka 17:13, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
      • He's tried. I disagree with his assertion that the term doesn't exist, as he's mentioned repeatedly the book from which the term stems. At this point, the term is off-handedly mentioned as an occasionally used term in an entry on another term entirely. Snowspinner 17:18, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep - just because you can't agree isn't a reason to delete - Tεxτurε 02:47, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Snowspinner and I were able to find common ground. I also went to the net to find additional material on each listing and citations/sites where possible. Please see the page history. My vote is now to keep. Denni 00:37, 2004 May 25 (UTC)
  • Keep, for sure. Regardless of the original state of the article, as it currently stands, it is an excellent piece of work. --Stormie 03:59, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
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